An Interview with Marv Marshall : Discipline without Stress ® Punishments or Rewards
Michael F. Shaughnessy
Eastern New Mexico University
Portales , New Mexico 88130
1. How can Principals, Teachers, and Parents Promote Responsibility & Learning?
Understand that although an adult can temporarily CONTROL a young person, no one can change how another person feels, thinks, or wants to be. Control is only temporary, as are external rewards and punishments. Also, it is a fact of life that no one can change another person; people change themselves. The least effective approach to influencing another person to change is through coercion. This negative focuses on obedience rather than on collaboration and promoting responsibility. Obedience does not create desire. One approach that does not use coercion and that promotes responsible behavior and effort to learn is outlined in the Discipline without Stress Teaching Model at
http://www.marvinmarshall.com/in-housedetails.html .
The essentials follow:
I. Classroom management vs. disciplineThe key to classroom management is teaching procedures, and this is the teacher's responsibility, whereas discipline is about behavior and is the student's responsibility. Good classroom management means teaching procedures for everything the teacher desires the students to do, having students practice the procedures, and then reinforcing them again by revisiting the procedures periodically. Rules are either expectations or procedures. If they are procedures, they should be taught and practiced. Relying on rules places the teacher in the role of a cop--a rule enforcer. This automatically creates an adversarial relationship. Using the term, "Responsibilities," rather than "Rules," eliminates the natural tendency toward enforcement and has teachers work collaboratively to help students help themselves.
I
I. Three principles to practice:
A - Positivity - Always communicate so that the person perceives the communication in positive terms. People do better when they feel better.
B - Choice - Eliminate all coercion by using the empowerment of choice. Coercion prompts resistance.
C- Reflection - Improve the skill of asking questions. Using reflective, self-evaluating questions is the most effective approach to actuate change in others.
III. The Raise Responsibility System
A. Teach the hierarchy of social development that has two unacceptable levels of behavior and two acceptable levels. The hierarchy has built-in choices and promotes the desire for internal motivation, rather than external motivation through being manipulated by rewards (positive coercion) and punishments (negative coercion) See
http://www.AboutDiscipline.com .
B. During irresponsible behavior, check for understanding by having the student reflect and identify the behavioral level chosen.
C. If irresponsible behavior continues, ELICIT a consequence or a procedure to help the student help him or herself--rather than imposing a consequence and have the student feel like a victim.
IV. Use the hierarchy to improve achievement.
Create mindsets of the levels BEFORE any activity and reflect AFTER the activity to prompt students to achieve at the highest level.
2. Is the discipline problem increasing, decreasing or has it stayed the same?Discipline problems are increasing. Reasons are many, but prime reasons include:
(1) The lack of teaching procedures (the key to effective classroom management) because teachers assume students know what to do without first teaching, then practicing, and then reinforcing the procedures.
(2) The increasing use of external manipulators (such as positive coercion in the form of rewarding)--rather than communicating expecting expectations of responsible behavior--and the use of negative coercion (such as imposing consequences, whether labeled "natural" or "logical"). When punishment is done TO the person, the adversarial relationship breeds negative feelings and alienation.
As long as teachers aim at doing things TO young people, rather than working WITH them to help redirect inappropriate impulses, these young people will continue to "fix their problems" through irresponsible approaches--such as acting out.
3. It seems that as long as you are putting 20-30 kids in a room, and forcing them to sit still, read, write, do math and learn to spell you are probably going to have discipline problems. True or False?
False, but this is misleading because I am asked to give one response to three points. (1) A teacher in grades 4- 12 can have 30 students in a classroom or 10 students in a classroom, but both the instruction (what the teacher does and what the teacher has the students do) depends upon the expertise of the teacher. Certainly, large classes limiting the teacher-student ratio at the PRIMARY GRADES--where academic skills and self-concepts are developed--asks teachers with even exceptional teaching expertise to do the impossible. (2) Any kind of force breeds a negative reaction. Although students can read, write, do math, and learn to spell while sitting still, unless some student activities are built into instruction, discipline problems will increase. (3) A discipline problem becomes a discipline problem when until the teacher labels it a discipline problem. For example, an action by one teacher is labeled a problem, while another teacher realizes the same irresponsible behavior is an attempt by the student to react to a frustration. This second teacher works collaborative WITH the student, whereas the first teacher's actions did something TO the student.
4. I have often thought that discipline problems could be minimized if we stopped all this social promotion. A child in the fourth grade who is reading at a second grade level is certainly going to be problematic in the schools, and yet we seem to push kids ahead regardless?
The two are not related. Social promotion is not the problem. The social agenda of inclusion where teachers have students with wide ranges of skills is most troubling. The disparity in skill levels increases the higher the grade level. Inclusion worked in one-room schools but not in the current factory system of schools where success is measured by passing standardized tests, rather than building on student's strengths to promote positive mindsets about learning and the school experience.
5. Some teachers indicate that the vast majority of the kids are great, but some of the special ed kids (children with autism, mental retardation, and learning disabilities) present problems with which teachers are not prepared to cope.
This is true, so these teachers need to be trained and given additional assistance, or special classes should be established for these students. Placing these students in regular classrooms (inclusion) has disadvantages for these students as well as for the "regular" students who are deprived of their own special time with their teacher.
6. Teachers seem to be continually asked to do more and more in the same time period. Does this stress cause discipline problems?
Stress is related more to how the teacher responds to challenges, than the challenges themselves. But to answer the intent of your question, teachers are now required to perform tasks and be accountable for expectations beyond the reasonable.
7. What are your top ten suggestions for teachers in this age of No Child Left Behind?( 1) The law employs threats, punishments, and pernicious comparisons to "motivate." Nothing based on negative foundations ever lasts. In addition, the law can only be justified politically, not educationally. None of the measurements used are valid or reliable for the purposes for which they are used in NCLB. These are just a couple of the reasons that teachers should focus on their teaching and student learning--rather than the ranking by NCLB or basing a youth's evaluation on the score of standardized tests where half inevitably fall below average.
(2) Reduce the emphasis on ranking, grading, and other approaches that encourages competition between students--that one "wins" only when another loses.
(3) Emphasize to students that they cannot learn and be perfect at the same time. Learning is growth. Failure only occurs when effort is stopped.
(4) Have students collaborate more by interacting with each other when the teacher poses a question. Even a shy person will talk with another person. Learning is active and collaboration has all students engaged actively in the learning process--in contrast to the students' raising their hands to compete for the teachers attention and the teacher's calling on only one student for an answer.
(5) Establish improved relations with students by communicating in positive terms, rather than in negative terms. Cognition and emotions are inextricably interrelated. When the perceived cognition is negative, a negative feeling is prompted. Feelings drive attention, and attention drives learning. When a student is emotionally blocked, learning stops.
(6) Use the Raise Responsibility System in the Discipline without Stress Teaching Model at
http://www.marvinmarshall.com/in-housedetails.html to foster a DESIRE to be responsible and a DESIRE to put forth effort in learning.
(7) Have students reflect at the end of every lesson or day on what has been taught in order to reinforce the learning.
(8) Evaluate procedures so that all students know how to accomplish EVERY task-from how to enter the classroom and what to do after first entering to visualizing when and how to do home assignments.
(9) Spend some individual time with each student during the week in order for the student to feel that the teacher has an interest in the student and for the teacher to ascertain where the student needs assistance.
(10) Empower students by (a) using positive communications, (b) offering choices, preferably three in order to eliminate any sense of coercion, and (c) prompting students to reflect that they always have a choice as to their response to any situation, stimulation, or impulse--so that they need not be victims.
8. Some school systems have a very large number of children on medication. Are we over-relying on medication and under-relying on common sense?
Yes, but the cause is the system that, for example, makes first grade out of kindergarten where some children, especially boys, are not socially or cognitively developed to succeed. Medication only treats symptoms; it never directly treats the problem or the cause. Too many people have Jean Piaget's hierarchy of development backwards.
They work with young people as if the young have the cognition of adults but the feelings of children. All normal humans have the same feelings, but their cognitive development varies.
9. Do teachers have to have different strategies for urban versus rural schools?
Yes and no. In some urban schools--such as in Harlem of New York City, Chicago , and Los Angeles (areas where I have worked)--more emphasis is necessary at the outset to establish positive relations. The approaches are the same for every area. Only the emphasis differs. In urban areas, especially among children of poverty, relations are of paramount importance. If these students have negative feelings towards their teacher, little effort will be forthcoming from students. In addition, peer influence is of exceptional significance. This is one reason why the hierarchy of social development--the foundation of the Raise Responsibility System (part III of the teaching model)--is so important to teach. I believe that it is imperative for young people to know the difference between external and internal motivation. They should understand when cooperation is essential and when conforming to peer influence of irresponsible behavior is counterproductive for themselves as well as for the greater good of society. In addition, by discussing the causes and results of coercion, such as bullying, the challenges of this type of behavior can be more easily resolved.
10. What question have I neglected to ask?
What is the greatest need in education today?
Response: Education is the only profession that does not train its practitioners to be confident and know what to do when they first enter the profession--namely, establishing positive relations and a climate where young people WANT to come to school, WANT to behave responsibly, and WANT to put forth effort to learn. 50% of teachers leave the profession within five years of entering the classroom. A main reason for this is that teachers are either not trained adequately or focus on obedience, rather than on promoting responsibility. They lack skills in having students behave responsibly and in promoting learning by creating interest, curiosity, and involvement that prompt students to put forth effort to learn.
11. Do you have a web site or an 800 number where teachers, principals and parents can get more information?
http://www.disciplinewithoutstress.com/ has a descriptive table of contents and three sections online from the book, "Discipline without Stress, Punishments or Rewards - How Teachers and Parents Promote Responsibility & Learning. The toll-free number is 800.606.6105
http://www.marvinmarshall.com/ describes how to foster responsible behavior and have students want to attend school, behave responsibly, and put forth effort to learn.
http://www.aboutdiscipline.com/ is a website that explains the reasons that external and coercive approaches such as rewards and punishments are counterproductive to fostering responsible behavior and positive character development.