Alison Wolf is Sir Roy Griffiths Professor of Public Sector Management at King’s College London and a Council Member for the United Nations University.  Professor Wolf  is also a Visiting Professorial Fellow at the Institute of Education, University of London and she is a regular columnist for the Times Higher Education Supplement. 

Professor Wolf worked for several years as a policy analyst for the United States government and she continues to work as a consultant for a wide range of government departments both in the United Kingdom and abroad.

She is the author of  the book “Does Education Matter? Myths about education and economic growth” which is published by  Penguin Press in London.

In this interview ,she responds to questions about her work, her ideas and current educational matters

1.  What research are you currently working on?

First, the impact of government-supported training offered in the workplace to low-skilled and low-income workers. Does it affect either their lives (in salary terms but also in terms of aspirations and further learning)/ Does it affect the enterprises? And does it look like value for money?

Second, at ways of improving the way in which we in the United Kingdom organize and fund our non-university post-compulsory education – a huge sector here known as ‘FE or  ‘Further Education’.

2.  What prompted your interest in educational policy and its effects on the labour market / economic growth?

I’ve always been interested in the interface between education and the labour market, ever since I was an undergraduate – perhaps because the British themselves are so preoccupied with whether, and how much, it matters where you went to school, and who you met (as well as what you studied) there. But perhaps living and working in the US was critical too, because the similarities to the UK struck me as being greater than Americans realize – which in turn made me doubly aware of just how important formal education is to people’s life experiences in the modern world.

3.  Why does education matter and what are some of the myths surrounding education and economic growth?

It matters above all because of the way it determines the sort of society we live in: - whether it is one of civilized, effective citizens; whether it helps us to develop our abilities and hone our intelligence; and whether it tends to integrate, or divide society. To any individual, it matters because it affects their future income and their RELATIVE position. It does also matter for the economy – just not as perfectly or simply as our politicians believe.

4.  How might expanding higher education undermine the value of education for low-income families?

Middle-class and rich families take the bulk of the places, especially in good colleges, in all developed societies with mass systems. Low income people often pay for quite a lot of that. Also, as degrees get very common, it becomes more and more important where you went – which in turn tends to favour the best-informed and privileged – and, worse, more and more jobs are barred to non-graduates even when the content doesn’t justify it.  That again impacts particularly on anyone who didn’t do really well in high school but is actually very able; and, indeed, on people who did do pretty well in high school but couldn’t afford a good college education.

5. Why would relying on educational policy as an effective tool for increasing economic growth and prosperity be flawed?

First, it only works effectively at all in combination with other critical factors (especially competition, and the chance for innovations to come to market successfully). Second, because once you get governments deciding to ‘buy’ growth with education they always get seduced by quantity and targets: which in turn tend to lead to low-cost uniformity. Developed countries do need some really top-class universities which will educate the next generation of researchers and inventors and innovators. Beyond that, the need for ‘graduate’ skills tends to be exaggerated – we are mostly well beyond that level already. (Which doesn’t mean we won’t make more jobs into ‘graduate-only’ jobs. Only that we don’t actually need to in terms of their skill content.)

To see that this is true, look across developed countries – the richest include some with the lowest as well as some with the highest rates of university enrolment. Across developing countries, and the world as a whole, there is zero correlation between enrolment rates and growth rates.

6) In the United Kingdom, you have many teachers unions. Do they influence educational policy at all?

Not under recent governments. But in a negative way they had a huge influence on the Conservative governments’ policies and determination to assert central control over teachers.  Their relationship with all recent governments has been very poor.

7) I know Tim Brighouse and Sir Cyril Taylor have contributed a good deal to education in England. In your mind, who are some of the other leading theorists and what do you see as their contributions?

Michael Young would be my number one nominee – a great man. And I was greatly influenced, personally, by Ronald Dore.

8) I know Joan Freeman has done a good deal for the “gifted“or “highly able“students in England. Who are some of the other leaders in the various educational domains?

I don’t feel competent to answer that.

9)  How effective are assessments such as the SAT and ACT in determining students’ success rates in higher education institutions?

Moderately, I think, though they are really most useful as a rough-and-ready way of distinguishing between (and selecting) students when you simply don’t have comparable information from any other source. A big study done here in the 1960s and 1970s found that success in subject-based, content-heavy exams was a better predictor.

10).  Here in the United States, our schools are increasingly ruled by the pressures of making Adequate Yearly Progress (AYP) as demonstrated through children’s performance on standardized tests.  In your opinion, are we effectively using assessment to help our students reach their maximum potential?

Well, I do think that some sort of evaluation and feedback is necessary but I do wonder how well it is being done. I’d refer you to Dylan Wiliam, until recently at ETS on this one – he is far closer to the situation AND a really authoritative source on good formative (and evaluative) assessment,

11) How has education in Great Britain changed under the current OFSTED leadership? (I believe David Bell has just resigned and Maurice Smith is in the leadership role?)

Again, I just don’t feel competent to answer this one.

12) What question have we neglected to ask?

Well, please don’t ask as I will probably not be able to answer for the next 6 months – but I was a bit surprised that you didn’t ask about ‘parental choice’, and market mechanisms.

Well, perhaps we will be able to discuss these items and areas of concern at a future point.

We would like to thank Professor Wolf for taking the time to respond to these questions and look forward to future conversations.