Mary A. Arth
Michael Shaughnessy
Eastern New Mexico University
Portales, New Mexico

Ruby K. Payne is the author of "Hidden Rules of Class at Work"," A Framework for Understanding Poverty" (which has sold more than 850,000 copies) and she has written and co-authored a dozen books surrounding issues of poverty in areas of education, social services, the workplace, communities, churches and leadership.

She has been a professional educator since 1972 and has served as a high school teacher, central office administrator, principal and educational consultation. She received her Ph.D. from Loyola University in Educational Leadership and Policy Studies and is a well known speaker on poverty and the "mindsets of economic classes". In this interview, she responds to questions about educating children from poverty stricken environments and the challenges both teachers and students face in this regard.

  1. First of all, how would you define poverty?

It is the extent to which an individual has or does not have resources.

  1. What causes poverty? How many children live in poverty?

There are four prevalent belief systems about the cause of poverty. The first is that is about the individual and the choices they make. The second is that it is caused by exploitation. The third is the human and societal resources that are available. The fourth is systems issues. All of these are valid and contribute to poverty. Often policy makers only choose to address one of the causes and then the intervention does not work. Child poverty is closely linked to the educational attainment level of the adult and family structure.

It is difficult to get exact data about children in poverty. If you go on internet, many conflicting sets of data are available. The number that is seen most frequently is that about 20% of children in America are in poverty. A child is defined as a person under the age of 18.

  1. If someone knew little about poverty, what facts/information would be key to understanding it better?

First, there is absolute poverty and relative poverty. Absolute poverty is when individuals starve to death as is happening in Africa. Relative poverty is the sense of well-being and resource availability in comparison to others. United States has relative poverty. Secondly, there is money and then there are mindsets. One can have the money and not have the mindset and vice versa. The mindsets of class are in part developed by the environment and the need to survive that environment. Third, another big point of confusion in the United States is that race and class are the same thing. They are not. Poverty occurs in all races.

  1. In your book, A Framework for Understanding Poverty (2001), you state that there can be eight resources in people's lives: financial, emotional, mental, spiritual, physical, support systems, relationships/role models and knowledge of hidden rules. a) How could each of these resources affect people's lives?

Financial resources bring stability and allow individuals time away from survival. Financial resources allow time for learning. Emotional resources bring stability and the ability to address those incidents that occur that are less than positive in a non destructive manner. Mental resources (ability to read, write and compute) keep a person from getting cheated and allow that person to know whether the information received is valid or not. Physical resources allow one to take care of yourself and you do not need to depend upon others. Spiritual resources (not religious)) give you hope and resiliency.

Support systems provide know-how, friends, family, connections, support, advice, and additional resources. Relationships/role models are the motivation for all learning. Knowledge of hidden rules allows you to negotiate your environment with a minimum of difficulty.

b) Which of these resources are essential for survival? Why? Everyone has most of these to some degree. And all are necessary for survival.

  1. How can people change from a state of poverty to middle class?

To survive in poverty, one must be non-verbal, reactive and sensory based. To survive in the middle class world of school and work, one must be verbal, abstract (live in a paper world) and proactive (be able to plan.) To get people to change requires two things: education and relationships. Education gives you the skills to operate in a paper world. Relationships teach you the hidden rules. The four reasons people leave poverty are: too painful to stay, a goal or a vision, a key relationship, or a skill or talent. It is very important to have a future story as well.

  1. How can schools help make positive changes for children in poverty?

First of all, the school must establish mutual respect with students from poverty and the teachers need to know the hidden rules of poverty. In addition, the teachers need to teach the hidden rules of middle class. Then it is important for teachers to direct teach the processes necessary to do the tasks and the mental models which translate between the sensory and the abstract.

  1. What do teachers need to know about teaching children who come from poor, poverty stricken environments?

First of all, the children are extremely resilient and usually excellent problem solvers in the real world of survival. That must be respected. If children have been in poverty two generations or more, the amount of language they have is significantly less (See the research of Hart and Risley, 1995) than those who came from an educated household. It is just that by law we require them to participate in a middle class environment called school where paper and planning are important and not the non verbals and reactiveness.

So the bridge between the sensory and the paper world must be provided in the form of mental models. And children from poverty need to be taught to plan backwards.

  1. Why is it so hard to teach children from poverty?

It is not IF you have the tools and the understandings.

  1. What should teachers and teacher's aides be particularly careful about when instructing children from poor environments?

That they stay in the adult voice. When teachers use the parent voice on students from poverty, it almost always erupts into a conflict.

10.      What suggestions would you give to teachers as they prepare to return to the classroom in terms of working with students from various social classes?

Regardless of the social class the student comes from, he//she wants to know that the teacher cares about him/her, that the teacher has a respect for him/her and that the teacher has a passion for what they do. The greatest gift to a student from poverty is the teacher because the teacher gives them what the parent cannot - education. To underestimate the power of that gift is to misunderstand the role of teaching. Is every student thirsting at the fount of knowledge? NO! But all students need to given the perimeters, the expectations, the support and the insistence that will help him or her succeed. Students have the choice to learn or not, but many more do when the above pieces are in place.